Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory; and he said to Him, "All these things I will give You, if You fall down and worship me." Matthew 4:8-9 Jesus answered and said, "This voice has not come for My sake, but for your sakes. Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world will be cast out.” John 12: 30 – 31 "I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.” John 14:30 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing, in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. II Corinthians 4:3-4 "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you cannot hear My word. You are of your father the devil, and you want to do the desires of your father He was a murderer from the beginning, and does not stand in the truth because there is no truth in him Whenever he speaks a lie, he speaks from his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.” John 8:43-44 Wait? Why don't we talk abut this? Jesus calls the devil the "ruler of the world"? Paul calls the devil the "god of this world"? Seriously? I'm sure the Jews didn't consider themselves the children of the devil. How could they? They were circumcised. They worshipped at the temple. They were born into God's nation, inheritors of the promises. How . . . ? Wait . . . If the devil is the ruler of the world, then I guess the world would be a pretty bad place to live. People would be characterized by their god and father. They would be selfish, liars, manipulators, murderers. People would live for themselves. They would be obsessed with pleasure and gain. They would be inconsiderate. Deceptive. They would masquerade as "angels of light" to get what they want. They would be rebellious. Am I not giving the world it's just description? What about your own soul? Do you have any of these tendencies? I know I do. When Laurie and I were attending Bible school, Major Ian Thomas taught an interesting lesson. He asked us to imagine an alien world that recently discovered that the almighty Creator of the universe made a creature in his very image and likeness on the earth. These aliens would be eager to visit this blessed planet to see these unique and wonderful creatures that demonstrate the very nature of their Creator God. Imagine their disappointment when they discover that God is a lying, manipulative, selfish, greedy overlord. So if this concept is as true as the evidence suggests, what does this say about the sovereignty of God? How could he allow this to happen? Is God unjust? Uninterested? Unloving? More to come . . . . but please weigh in.
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9 comments:
The first thing that comes to my mind is another question. God allowed Satan to tempt Eve and thus the world fell to sin and we all became evil and selfish. If he didn't allow us to choose sin then we would all be robots, programmed to worship our creator. That's not what he wanted, is that what you would want? Would you want someone to love you because they are programmed to do it or because they chose to love you? So my question is which would you rather have a perfect world with no sin and us being programmed to love God or the world we have now??????
Is God unjust or uninterested or unloving? My guts turn at the question! Man is free to choose His master. Those who've chosen this world (or are walking in ignorance) act selfishly, murderously, making it unpleasant for everyone and maybe especially those who've chosen Jesus Christ as their King. But their treachery against their creator has no bearing on His nature or character. He allows them to rebel and woos them back to Himself, offering His own Son to be reconciled to those who are daily spitting in His face. Unloving?? Don't even suggest it! Unjust? He poured out His wrath for sin on His Son, so I guess that looks unjust from Jesus' perspective, if Jesus hadn't gone willingly to the cross. Uninterested? Jesus said that not a sparrow falls apart from the Father's will. (Matt 10:29) And we, He says, "are more valuable than many sparrows." So no, God's gift of freedom to man does not make Him any of those things. He allows evil but that doesn't make him culpable for it. There is too much evidence of His love and goodness to fall back to a mere logical argument to determine His character.
You get on that soap box, woman! :)
Yes, what DOES "this" (the examples cited) say about the sovereignty of God? They demonstrate what the Whole of Scripture teaches about God: that He is utterly in control of every second of time AND uses EVERYTHING to His glory. The terms "ruler of this world" and "god of this world" are merely terms to show Satan's power (that was granted to him temporarily by God) over mankind, the fallen Creation. Remember Job; this man was "blameless, upright, fearing God and turning away from evil" (Job 1:1) and Satan (the god of this world) had to ASK God's permission to affect Job's life. "Then the LORD said to Satan, 'Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him' (Job 1:12). So again (referencing my comments on "God's Preference) we do not view any action too closely but consider it according to what the Scriptures teach about God's power.
“...for I am God, and there is no other; I am God, and there is no one like Me, declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times things which have not been done, saying, 'My purpose will be established, and I will accomplish all My good pleasure'; calling a bird of prey from the east, the man of My purpose from a far country. Truly I have spoken; truly I will bring it to pass. I have planned it, surely I will do it” (Isaiah 46:9-11).
“…For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, and His kingdom endures from generation to generation. All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, but He does according to His will in the host of heaven and among the inhabitants of earth; and no one can ward off His hand or say to Him, 'What have You done?'” (Daniel 4:34b-35).
“I know, O LORD, that a man's way is not in himself, nor is it in a man who walks to direct his steps” (Jeremiah 10:23).
“Many plans are in a man's heart, but the counsel of the LORD will stand” (Proverbs 19:21).
“The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil” (Proverbs 16:4).
“…according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11).
So, the terms, "god" and "ruler" of this world are easily understood within the context of the Whole of Scripture.
I WOULD like to ask a question relative to the one DolphinGirl posited; she said, "So my question is which would you rather have a perfect world with no sin and us being programmed to love God or the world we have now??????"
Speaking of those of the Nation Israel in the New Heaven's and New Earth that God is going to create when He destroys the world we now know, He says in Jeremiah 32:37-40, "Behold, I will gather them out of all the lands to which I have driven them in My anger, in My wrath, and in great indignation; and I will bring them back to this place AND MAKE THEM DWELL IN SAFETY ((a "violation" of their freewill)). And they shall be My people, and I will be their God; and I WILL GIVE THEM ONE HEART AND ONE WAY, THAT THEY MAY FEAR ME ALWAYS ((another freewill violation)) for their own good, and for the good of their children after them. And I will make an everlasting covenant with them that I will not turn away from them, to do them good: AND I WILL PUT THE FEAR OF ME IN THEIR HEARTS SO THAT THEY WILL NOT TURN AWAY FROM ME ((ANOTHER freewill violation))." Are those who will occupy the New Earth going to be "programmed" or will they be FREED from their sin to love God as He desires?
What about what God says in Ezekiel 36:26? "Moreover, I WILL GIVE YOU A NEW HEART AND PUT A NEW SPIRIT WITHIN YOU; AND I WILL REMOVE THE HEART OF STONE FROM YOUR FLESH AND GIVE YOU A HEART OF FLESH. AND I WILL PUT MY SPIRIT WITHIN YOU AND CAUSE YOU TO WALK IN MY STATUTES, AND YOU WILL BE CAREFUL TO OBSERVE MY ORDINANCES." Will Israel merely be a multitude of robots? Whatever your answer here, one thing is CLEAR: this WILL come to pass by the SOVERIGN power of the God of the Bible. This is precisely why it is VITAL that we interpret the Scriptures using a literal-grammatical-historical hermeneutic SO THAT we don't answer theological questions with philosophical answers.
How about in Revelation 21:1-6? "And I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, 'Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He shall dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself shall be among them, and He shall wipe away every tear from their eyes; AND THERE SHALL NO LONGER BE ANY DEATH; THERE SHALL NO LONGER BE ANY MOURNING, OR CRYING, OR PAIN; THE FIRST THINGS HAVE PASSED AWAY." God will not only forever destroy sin and its adverse effect upon mankind, but will give His People a heart of flesh (after taking out their hearts of stone) and give them new spirits and CAUSE THEM to walk in His statutes. Will His People merely be a throng of mindless robots...or will they be His TRUE children who have been FREED from sin and, therefore, given the ABILITY to worship Him in spirit and in truth? What do THE SCRIPTURES teach about this?
The example of John 8:43-44 was cited where Jesus said, "Why do you not understand what I am saying? It is because you CANNOT hear My word." Why was it true they COULD NOT hear His word? Jesus did not say that they CHOSE NOT TO hear Him; He said they COULD NOT hear Him. Jesus said to the Jewish Leaders in John 6:43-44, "
...Do not grumble among yourselves. NO ONE CAN COME TO ME UNLESS THE FATHER DRAWS HIM; AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP ON THE LAST DAY." A couple points of note: 1) the very same word here that is rendered "draws" in English is rendered "drag" in John 21:8 and James 2:6 (I believe these are the only other times in the NT that this word is used). The use of the word “robots” implies infringement upon man’s supposed autonomous freewill. 2) EVERY person “drawn” WILL BE raised up on the last day. The text DOESN’T say that they will be drawn if they CHOSE SO; it merely says that everyone who is drawn WILL BE raised up. This is exactly in keeping with what the Lord Jesus said in Luke 10:22 (and Matthew 11:27): "All things have been handed over to Me by My Father, and no one knows who the Son is except the Father, and who the Father is except the Son, AND ANYONE TO WHOM THE SON WILLS TO REVEAL HIM.”
Something to consider: do the Scriptures teach that God will impose HIS WILL upon people who were NOT seeking Him, thus, saving them from eternal torment? Does He DRAG those who are born His enemies and love their sin into a relationship SO THAT they will AVOID eternal torment? Answer: yes, this is the biblical answer to this theological question. This demonstrates that He is INEXPLICABLY loving, just AND very interested in bringing glory to Himself. Hallelujah!
David,
I appreciate your thorough and well-researched response. Sadly, when we see Jesus in the flesh, we see a very different character than the one you just described. Jesus was not controlling, not manipulative, and not here to bring glory to Himself. He was humble. Caring. Concerned. But also angry at those who would not listen, or those who would lead others astray.
Maybe you see Jesus as different than God the Father, but I suspect by your post that you would never take that stance. You are hard core about the theological principals of your denomination. Which is not bad, as long as they are true.
In the case of Job and Peter, Satan had to ask God's permission because he wanted to deal with God's people. Never once do we see the Devil asking permission to deal with one of his own. When the devil offered Jesus the kingdoms of the earth, Jesus did not laugh or even argue. Why not? Wouldn't Jesus know better?
If God is "in control of every second of time" then every one of our sins is part of his purpose. Should we ask forgiveness for fulfilling his perfect plan? There can be no such thing as evil, because ultimately it is all His doing. Can He be evil? Or does he just use the devil as an "evil sponge" to clear himself of all blame?
Even though your stance sounds very honorable to God, be careful that it does not make Him a tyrant. Also, be sure that your description matches what we see in Jesus, who came to show us the Father.
Hey John,
Thank you for your response. It seems that you and I agree on A LOT (at least as articulated on your blog) and I appreciate the dialogue.
When we see the actions/heart of Jesus as recorded in the NT, we are “looking” at one of the Persons of the Triune God of the Universe, with which I have no doubt you would agree. When we look at the actions of God THROUGHOUT the Scriptures, we see many different characteristics of Him for which He is due glory (I do not think anyone would argue that there is any action/”stance” that God has taken for which He is NOT due worship/glory). Jesus, God the Son, “played many roles” in His showing us the Father: He taught us how to pray, that we should seek first the Kingdom of God and His righteousness, that we should think of others more highly than ourselves, etc. These (and the many not included) are all reasons to worship the Triune God. I am not saying that Jesus and God are at odds with each other in any way; neither do the Scriptures. In the OT, God is shown to be very merciful and tender as well as wrathful and the Exactor of judgment. I AM saying that God the Son willingly submitted to God the Father (while remaining totally equal with Him as far as His Deity) and came to earth to exhibit A MORE COMPLETE DEMONSTRATION of God’s character than what had been revealed up to that point in time, NOT something “different.” Each Person of the Trinity has a particular Role to play and, therefore, exhibits the different, HARMONIOUS attributes of God that reveal to us Who He is. Remember, Jesus also called the Pharisees hypocrites and white-washed walls; He called them children of the devil and He destroyed the money changers’ “set-up” in the temple area. These are more than the (very accurate) benevolent, humble portrayal of Jesus that you have been focusing upon; He is MORE THAN what you have been highlighting. If you are referring ONLY to the way Jesus acted TOWARD HIS PEOPLE, remember NO ONE was a child of His from birth; EVERYONE was His enemy. He, like the loving, merciful Father Who sent Him, charged people to repent and come to Him and, in the cases of the OT and NT, many DID come to Him. The Message is the SAME in both Testaments: Repentance based upon God’s Word (the charge to everyone; also the “means” of God’s purposes) and the ACTUAL calling (or bringing) of His People to Himself (the “ends”). Joel 2:12, 32, “‘Yet even now,’ declares the LORD, ‘Return to Me with all your heart, and with fasting, weeping, and mourning…And it will come about that whoever calls on the Name of the LORD will be delivered…even among the survivors whom the LORD calls’” and Acts 2:38-39, “Repent, and let each of you be baptized in the Name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. For the promise is for you and your children, and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God shall call to Himself.” I am not trying to demonstrate that God and Jesus are different in any way. God has always been about purifying a People for Himself (Ezekiel 37:23, Titus 2:14, Hebrews 2:17) and exhibits MANY DIFFERENT attributes/characteristics in so doing.
When you say that the “character I just described” was “controlling and manipulative” I hope you noted that I was citing Scripture to demonstrate certain attributes of the Triune God. It is imperative that WHOEVER we “think” God is, that we come to our conclusions based upon what the Bible teaches and not based upon our own presuppositions and traditions...or hopes and wishes. When you read the Scriptures I cited, do you think that God is being controlling and manipulative? I understand these descriptive words to imply (at the least) that a being is acting malevolently and is not justified in his actions. Forgetting Jesus for a moment, I AM curious as to how you understand the passages I cited, specifically Jeremiah 32:37-40 and Ezekiel 36:26 as these describe what God WILL BRING TO PASS and HOW He will do it.
As far as Job and Peter and the saints in general, I am in complete agreement with you that Satan had to ask to affect their lives BECAUSE they DID belong to God and that there is no Scriptural basis to conclude that he needs specific permission to act upon those who are “of ((their)) father the devil.” I was not trying to make that point at all, only that WHATEVER action Satan takes has been decreed by the Sovereign God of the Universe. Jesus didn’t laugh or argue with Satan when he offered Him the kingdoms of the world because (at least) He, being God the Son, KNEW the ultimate plan of God which included Jesus being tempted as we are. “Therefore, He had to be made like His brethren in all things, so that He might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make propitiation for the sins of the people. For since He Himself was tempted in that which He has suffered, He is able to come to the aid of those who are tempted” (Hebrew 2:17-18)… “For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but One who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin” (Hebrews 4:15). There were certain things that Jesus, while on earth, HAD to experience in order to fulfill the purpose for which He was sent. Again, these are the “means” that were decreed to bring about the “ends.”
You said, “If God is "in control of every second of time" then every one of our sins is part of his purpose.” Think of the converse of that sentiment: that God IS NOT in control of every moment (and, therefore, NOT sovereign) and that all sins committed have no purpose whatsoever; that they are random and meaningless acts upon the Creation over which God has no control or, perhaps, has RELINQUISHED control. If this is true, how then do we understand Proverbs 16:4 (for example)? “The LORD has made everything for its own purpose, even the wicked for the day of evil.” If man has a truly autonomous freewill, then this passage cannot be true. Remember, we are discussing God, “who works all things after the counsel of His will” (Ephesians 1:11). The Bible does not teach us that God is the Cosmic Responder to man’s will, rather that He is…sovereign ;). To answer your questions: we should always ask forgiveness for our sins (that are a part of the Decree of Him who works all things after the counsel of His will) because sin is eternally offensive to God. ALL principals are taught in the Word: God is in complete control of everything AND we need to humbly submit to His mandate (that is directly related to His character) by confessing and repenting of our sins AND that He uses sin (for now) to accomplish His purposes. NO, God cannot be evil but HE DOES use it (because He has ordained it) for His purposes as Proverbs 16:4 demonstrates. I think it is very clear that God uses the devil (as well as everything else that He created) to bring glory to Himself. Without the devil’s influence upon mankind, certain attributes of God could not be glorified, such as grace and mercy.
I hear your admonition to be careful about the conclusions I arrive at concerning God and I sincerely appreciate that. It is a good admonition. I would respectfully caution you as well, that you do not ascribe to Him titles or characteristics that are not what the Whole of Scripture teaches. Do you see something tyrannical about God’s dealing with Israel in the Jeremiah and Ezekiel passages (or any others) that I cited? You mentioned that although my stance seems honorable to God, it is (paraphrased) erroneous; at least to a certain degree. What is honorable to God is to rightly divide His Word (which I believe BOTH of us desire to do) and to let the Word of God speak and determine our opinions about the subjects It addresses. Very often, we find ourselves coming to the Word with cultural ideals and seek to justify them BY the Scriptures, rather than to make absolutely certain we are defining everyone and everything by the Written Word of God…even if it means that we must shift our thinking on things.
You mentioned that I am “hard core about the theological principals of ((my)) denomination.” I am passionate about the Truth of God’s Word as every professor of Christ is called to be (Colossians 3:16, 1 Peter 3:15) and, for what it’s worth, I worship at a non-denominational fellowship. :)
OK, finally (my fingers are tired!), one of the original challenges of you’re “The Ruler of This Word” post was to consider Satan’s domain/power as compared to God’s sovereignty. You cited John 14:30, where Jesus says, “I will not speak much more with you, for the ruler of the world is coming, and he has nothing in Me.” Jesus also references Satan this way 2 chapters earlier in John 12:31, where He says, “Now judgment is upon this world; now the ruler of this world shall be cast out.” The immediate context of this passage is enough to define the true meaning of this title. If the ruler of this world is going to be “cast out” then by Whom will he be? The obvious answer is that God will do this, therefore, “the ruler of this world” is SUBORDINATE to God and, thus, his “rule” is SIGNIFICANTLY limited by the only true Sovereign.
Thank you for the opportunity to discuss these issues in an open forum…
Hey David,
First of all, I'm loving the fact that you know what you're talking about. Seriously LOVING it! I can also see that my counter-arguments did not bother you, which makes me feel better about continuing the conversation. I am not in this to push an agenda or bother people. I care about truth and honoring God. Clearly you do as well.
Okay . . . here we go:
You must have read my posts about scripture. I believe that scripture is inspired, but I also don't think that means we can pull theology from every word.
For example, people burned Galileo for suggesting that the earth circled the sun while the Bible clearly states that the sun rises and sets, which means that it is the SUN that is moving, not the earth. Therefore, a strict interpretation of scripture means that Galileo is a heretic. BURN HIM.
In Hannah's prayer in I Samuel 2:8, Hannah says, "For the pillars of the earth are the Lord's, and he set the world on them." Okay, so a strict interpretation of scripture means the world is flat, set on pillars.
Well, we all know that Hannah was speaking from her own "scientific" understanding. But apparently, since those words are inspired, we need to believe that the world is on pillars.
We should draw our theology from the sermons of Paul and Jesus, not necessarily the poetry of David ("you know every hair on my head," "If I descend to Hell you are there," etc.) or the Proverbs of a wise man given for an age of men before the Holy Spirit was given for governance, (proverbs that people can live by without Jesus or regeneration), or pulling theology out of statements that God made to get the attention of Israel during a time of serious rebellion.
I am the head of my household. I can be so without controlling every action of my wife and children. To say that God doesn't control every second of time doesn't mean that He is not in control. Not by a long shot! Jesus didn't have to tell his disciples where to step, where to eat lunch, or where to go to bed to be their master. I think we often assume what sovereignty means because we assume that freedom destroys it. Not at all true.
God is free, the angels are free, and man is free. And in that system, as Creator, God can do what he wants when he wants. But he is loving, therefore he calls, urges, loves, and when he has to, he intervenes with power and authority. That is called sovereignty. To say that God must get his fingers into every soul and manipulate every action is assuming that our freedom is a threat to him, which makes him seem very small to me.
When he asserts his authority to his rebellious people, he is making a statment like I would make to my kids when they are being disobedient: "This is MY house and what I say goes as long as you are under my roof!"
I suppose my son can sit down with his logic hat on and decide that, because I made that statement, every time he steps under my roof, he is magically tranformed to serve a mysterious "Barnts House Plan" that he will never understand.
No. God makes these phrases because they are true of Him, but also to encourage his people to respond. He still wants their free responses. As we saw in Jesus, God was honored in obedience, not force. "Not my will, but yours be done." That was a free choice. And that, my friend, is love. And love is our motivation, that "his joy may be in us, and our joy may be full."
I have a LOT more to say about this, but those will be explored in future posts. There is just too much . . . I hope you continue to read and contribute.
Once we experience God as relational - these questions & discussions don't threaten to shake your faith.
I think that is INCREDIBLE!
Oy! I'm going to need some sleep to let my brain, eyes and fingers rest! Thanks for the good converstion. More to come (Lord willing)! :)
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