It seemed fitting to resurrect Frank with the topic of resurrection. Unfortunately, after Frank finished a hellish few months of work, he took Spring Break too seriously to come out with a post on or around Easter Sunday. He apologizes. But after being dead for so long . . . well, you wouldn't understand. Christians get so excited on Resurrection Sunday. Jesus leaves the tomb alive and well, having conquered sin and death. The salvation work is finished. The pastor of my church (and I suspect many others) went into a lot of detail about how the resurrection must be historical fact, how Jesus is alive and well today, but . . . will you excuse me a moment as I stick on my cynic hat? If my Christian grandmother dies, I wouldn't say that Death has had its way with her. I wouldn't consider her really dead just because she didn't crawl back out of the coffin and ascend bodily into heaven. People actually celebrate at Christian funerals, assured that their loved ones are safe and sound, alive in heaven. So Jesus comes back bodily from the grave, walks around for a few weeks, then goes straight to the place he would have gone anyway. Where is the victory there? It seems more like a delay, a farewell tour, a victory lap . . . but not necessary for salvation. I grew up believing that it was the death of Jesus that made salvation possible. There were scriptures that led me to believe that sin was plastered in or on Jesus (as if it was some sort of black goo) while he was on the cross, forcing God to turn his face (as if he doesn't look on sinful people every day). Then, when the Romans crucified Jesus, sin was crucified with him. But if I do the very thing I do not want to do, I agree with the Law, confessing that the Law is good. So now, no longer am I the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me. Romans 7:16-17 He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. I Peter 2:24 But what is sin? Missing the mark, right? How can you kill "missing the mark"? Shoot it? Stab it?If sin is not physical or material, how can it be killed? Secondly, how could it dwell within a body? Another thing: Paul seems to think that the salvation work is incomplete without the resurrection, which means the work was not completed on the cross. For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised; and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; you are still in your sins. I Cor 15:16-17 Since the death and resurrection is central to our life and hope, shouldn't we understand it completely? I grilled the Christians in my 10th Grade Bible class on this, and not one of them could logically explain how the death and resurrection of Jesus saved anyone. Can any of you answer these questions? (remember, I still have my cynic hat on) 1) If Jesus was forgiving sins before the cross (he claimed that authority) then why couldn't he have just forgiven everyone without going to the cross? Was his authority limited? 2) If Jesus conquered sin and death, why do we still sin and die? 3) Why was the resurrection necessary for the salvation of sins? 4) Why was a physical resurrection necessary?
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- John Barnts
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9 comments:
Good questions John. I had a couple thoughts on the first two questions anyway.
1. People were always considered righteous through faith, like Abraham. Those who believed Jesus' words (and claim to be God's Son) were forgiven on the same basis as Abraham. But, like Abraham, they were looking forward in faith to God's work which Jesus would complete on the cross.
2. We still sin because we are either ignorant that we don't have to or don't ask for deliverance from temptation. (I cor 10:13); we still die physically because physical death, like you pointed out, is only an entrance into God's presence. It is a temporary situation that in the light of eternity amounts to nothing. Afterall, our bodies will very soon be resurrected and clothed in the eternal. And we are even now with God.
Am I getting warm?
Another quick thought: God wants to restore His creation to its purpose, so forgiving us indefinitely doesn't go far enough. We just keep coming up short of what we were made for. Christ came back with a body that was supernatural and unlimited by the material though fully interactive with it. I think that in that state He would be beyond temptation because He was beyond need. The devil tested him with food, safety, and dominion and he needed none of these anymore. Maybe we won't either. So for right now we "groan, longing to be clothed with the heavenly" as Paul says, but we are "working out our salvation", showing ourselves faithful as we persevere and hold on to faith until the fullness of newness comes.
Thoughts?
Welcome back!
Answer to 1. This is covered in Hebrews 9: 24-28.
Answer to 2. Keep reading in 1 Corinthians 15: 24-28. We have not run through the whole program.
Answer to 3. Is the resurrection relevant to salvation? The sacrifice was necessary to satisfy the Law. Remembering that the temple curtain was torn when Christ died, we can understand Hebrews 9.
Answer to 4. A permanent physical death would have nullified the promised marriage of Christ to his bride, which is the Church.
Thanks,
Rick Mugele
First, a question: why is it so important for Christians to really explain *how* the death and resurrection of Jesus saves them? Based on many of the NT letters, the "how" seems terribly mysterious.
Somehow, I have been crucified with Christ, so that it is no longer I who lives but rather it is Christ who lives in me. By sharing in Jesus' death, I somehow share in eternal life. Paul at least said he didn’t know *how* exactly this works:
“I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.”
I think explaining the how is less important than living our witness that Jesus died for our sins and it is no longer we who live but Christ in us.
That being said, I like this post quite a bit! I especially like your questions!
In my opinion, these are not the questions of a cynic, but of a growing Christian who is willing to ponder how Christian theology corresponds with Scripture. I think you press some good pressure points!
Here are some responses to your four questions:
<1) If Jesus was forgiving sins before the cross (he claimed that authority) then why couldn't he have just forgiven everyone without going to the cross? Was his authority limited?>
Great observation! And he also told the thief on the cross that they would meet in Paradise…before he died and rose again! I wonder if Jesus himself wasn’t 100% sure that his death was the only way to achieve God’s goals. After all, Jesus prayed for the cup to be taken from him before Judas and the guards came to take him away (Luke 22:42). Yet Jesus prayed also that God’s will and not Jesus’ will be done. And it turned out that God didn’t change his mind and offer Jesus an easier way. But I think Jesus hoped that God would, certainly there was that possibility. Why else would Jesus pray this?
<2) If Jesus conquered sin and death, why do we still sin and die?>
Why do we still sin? I think God might have the same question. Jesus thought that when he left and God sent the Holy Spirit, this would really help facilitate Christian living as God intended. History (and last week’s paper) proves otherwise.
Why do we still die? Good question! Of course, obscurity of life and death is nothing new in Scripture. Adam and Eve didn’t *die* after the Fall! The death God promised them turned out to be something different. I think the life God promises us is different too. It certainly is important that Jesus not only promised eternal life but also promised his followers that they would die because the world would hate them.
< 3) Why was the resurrection necessary for the salvation of sins?>
That's a mystery for sure, but the good news is that Jesus died and rose again! Could God have done it another way? Sure, why not? But he chose to do it this way.
<4) Why was a physical resurrection necessary?>
I suppose that otherwise, nobody would have known for sure that Jesus really did rise. Most would have eventually reacted like Thomas did initially. And the Church would not have been strong enough under persecution and would have given up their testimony under Roman persecution.
To those whom He forgave in His presence because of their faith in Him were,are saved,thief on the cross,good example--today you will be with me.His death on the cross allows all who call on His name to be saved from that point forward.
He conquered the "penalty" for sin.The Old Man,our sins,are nailed to the cross with Christ Gal.2:20.The issue of sins and it's curse are no longer an issue to God.Christ took care of that,"it is finished".
Our "position" with God is total righteousness because of Christ.He is no longer concerned with the "old man"and our sins.Christ paid the penalty for them,past,present,and future.Therefore when we sin,bring them before the Lord,confess them and move on in His grace.We have a tendency to live in the"condition"of our walk with the Lord "doing" for God,led by self,the flesh, not by God,which always leads to sin,defeat,discouragement,etc.We need to "be" in the Lord,It's His deal, we're His branches,it's the not mine but thine thing.When you "REALLY" understand it's all about, and for Him,that's freedom in Christ.Remember He's the author and "finisher" of our faith. And the things of earth grow strangely dim--------
Why the Resurrection?He conquered death,He set the captives free.
Why physical?He was the first fruit,example of things to come.Exchange the perishable for the imperishable.
May you always find water and shade--.
The cross was primarily about the obedience/faithfulness of Jesus Christ to His God and Father. God desires obedience, especially obedience within the context of trials/suffering. Such obedience in the face of great personal sacrifice is a pleasing aroma to God.
How does the cross result in our salvation from sin and death? The mechanics are like this:
1)God chooses, anoints, and empowers the Son with His Spirit.
2)The Son is obedient/faithful unto death, even the death of the cross.
3)The Father is delighted in such an obedient/faithful and worthy Son.
4) The Father exalts the Son and gives all into His hands, giving Him all power in heaven and earth. The Son inherits all things.
5) The Son reigns and uses the power and authority given to Him to save and redeem.
Consider the example of Joseph. Joseph is sold into slavery, yet he remains faithful and obedient as a slave and in prison. Joseph is then exalted to the right hand of Pharaoh and uses the authority given to him to save Egypt from famine/death and to buy Egypt for Pharaoh.
Israel is promised the inheritance of the promised land and blessing if they are obedient. Jesus is obedient and thus inherits all things.
The New Covenant begins with Jesus. He is given the Spirit without measure and thus walked flawlessly before God. He is the First, the Firstborn, the First fruit. These titles connect Him to humanity, and point to the full harvest to come. We are being conformed into His image. We will have a body like His and a character like His.
You ask:
1) If Jesus was forgiving sins before the cross (he claimed that authority) then why couldn't he have just forgiven everyone without going to the cross? Was his authority limited?
His authority was limited. Satan was still master of the kingdoms of the earth. Jesus didn’t(and couldn’t) give anyone immortality at that time. He was still looking forward to the Kingdom that God had promised to Him as a reward for His obedience in all of His trials and sufferings.(Luke 22:28-30)
2) If Jesus conquered sin and death, why do we still sin and die?
We still sin and die because we have not yet been given immortality and a perfectly righteous character.
3) Why was the resurrection necessary for the salvation of sins?
4) Why was a physical resurrection necessary?
Jesus rose from the dead because a dead savior cannot save anyone. Now, as the resurrection and the life, the One with immortality, the One with the keys to death and hades, now, He is able to save….
Annomous, Consider.............
John 1:1-5
"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it."
THEREFORE [my words now] Jesus was never limited or unable to do anything.He was here at Creation and took part in it with God the Father.
Hebrews 1:1-3 "GOD, after He spoke long ago in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high;"
FURTHERMORE The cross was not about faithfulness and obedience , it was about death. Jesus died so that we would have life -(here and now) in John 11:25,26 Jesus says "I am the resurrection and the life; he who believes in Me shall live even if he dies, and everyone who lives and believes in Me shall never die." [end quote] Obedience and faithfulness are works and have nothing to do with accomplishing our salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 says "For by grace you have been saved through faith:; and that not of your works, that no one should boast."
We can't earn our salvation. It is a gift. John 3:16 "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever beleiveth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life."
its FAITH. [period]
Anonymom
Your questions reminded me of a discussion we had in a small group Bible study I attended in high school. During my sophomore year, a girl in my class was killed in a car accident. We were a very small school, so it hit us pretty hard. During our Bible study, the group of guys was talking about the event and one of the leaders made a very interesting point. He said that while physical death is a punishment for sin and is emblematic of the spiritual separation that sin creates, physical death is also a gift from God. It allows us to one day escape from the physical and emotional consequences of sin. Imagine having to face disease and cancer and injuries - most of which are either the direct or indirect result of sin - and never having the escape of death. So death allows us an end to corrupted existence. The resurrected bodies allow us to maintain our immortality, but sans the sin nature that is somehow connected to the physical body.
The end of that thought isn't quite complete yet, at least not complete enough to fully answer your questions, but I did want to bring in the "death as a gift" idea.
Hmmmm. "The wages of sin is death." So why do we have to die to go to heaven? The contradiction her is so startling that it is astonishing that we do not see it for what it is.
We are forever trying to reconcile the flesh with the spirit and thus fail to understand the crucifixion and resurrection. That which God created cannot die, for anything that God creates is eternal. So as we watch death occur in this world, what is dying? If God's creations cannot die, then what we are observing? If God is real then what definition do we apply to observing the death of a physical body? Could we then consider that the physical body is somehow not real?
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