Statement #2: You are a sinner, separated from the loving plan of God. My skeptical self would have less trouble with this statement, at least at first. Most of us would admit that we aren't perfect. Who is? Christians would say that Jesus and Adam were perfect, but does that mean they were really good at Calculus? Did they ever trip or jam a finger? Did they ever get sick? Did they poop? If so, did it smell like garlic mashed potatoes? In evangelism, when we talk about "perfect," we're talking about going through life without a single bad thought or selfish act. But what if we don't act on those natural impulses? Are we still sinners? What if we act on them, but our actions harm no one? It's easy to tell a convicted criminal that they are a sinner, but what about a moral person with an honest and caring heart? There are many of these people working in world, saving lives, helping people, and many of them are not Christians. What makes the Christians any more pure than the well-meaning non-Christians? My skeptical self would respond to my Evangelical self by saying, "I'm just as much of a sinner as you. Why do I need your salvation?" In other words, if salvation is innefective in a tangible, practical sense, why should I believe in the rest of your gospel message, including the parts about heaven and hell? The Reformed tradition emphasizes the Total Depravity of man as the first pedal of their TULIP (their five-point summary of the Christian faith). This depravity is sort of like a virus, a curse, that humans contract from Adam. If you could see it, it would probably look like the black tar that turned Eddie Brock into Venom, but on your soul. Jesus takes the tar out when you're saved, but the stain remains, which basically means you'll act the same, but he won't hold it against you. 
I plan to blog on sin and depravity at another time, but for now, I just want to stir the pot. Remember, I do believe in the Christian faith, but faith is not blind. Let's not ignore these things and use "faith putty" to fill our gaps of logic. That dishonors God, and it makes Christians look foolish. I have another problem with telling people that they're sinners. If the skeptic is logical, he will realize that a faulty product is not to blame for it's own faultiness. If I buy a new car and the steering wheel comes off while I'm driving, I don't get angry at the steering column. If I survive the inevitable wreck, I'd go straight back to the manufacturer and demand a refund. I think you see where I'm going. If God is perfect and man was created perfect, how could the human race go wrong so quickly? I recognize that we have a free will, but why, in her freedom, would Eve choose the wrong thing before the tar-like depravity kicked in? Was she created with a propensity toward rebellion, or was she just naive? Why did Adam go along with it? The spiritual being that deceived her was another example of one of God's creatures gone wrong. We all know he wasn't naive. If God's creatures, left to their own devices, have a tendency to rebel against their Creator, it seems like there is something wrong in the programming. It would seem that sin was God's intention from the beginning. Besides, wouldn't God have foreseen all of these rebellions and done something about them? He wasn't even present at the Fall of Man. He knew it would happen. He knew they would sin. It almost seems as if the Fall was God's intention from the beginning. Thoughts?
Skeptic #2
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Oh there is SO much to say about all of this!!! Again, I just amaze at the timeliness of the post given what I have been reading and studying. God is so masterful in His plan, isn't He? These little coincidences are not to be taken for granted, or to be trivialized... They are to be seen as remarkable, by a God who knows every little detail of our lives, our thoughts, and even what we're reading...
I am reading, "The Confident Woman," by Joyce Meyers. She addresses some of the main differences between Men & Women's personalities - drawing her conclusions from evidence that dates back as far as the Fall.
She writes her thoughts about why the Serpent chose to lure Eve to eat from the tree, and not Adam. And says, "It may have been because he thought he could play on her emotions easier than Adam's. Although it's not always they case, women are usually more emotionally driven, while men are more logical." (Whether or not you agree with that statement, her main point is basically that men & women need to work together as a team for the good of all.)
But this is what is important - both Adam and Eve sinned, and were held responsible for their sin... and not only were THEY held responsible but God also dealt with Satan. HE said, "I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your offspring and her Offspring; He will bruise and tread your head underfoot and you will lie in wait and bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15)
But here is the really impacting point of that passage... "Satan has hated women almost from the beginning, because it was a woman who would ultimately give birth to Jesus Christ, the defeater of Satan and all of his evil works. Just as God said, her offspring bruised his head (his authority)."
Now, from that are we to believe that God had planned to create Adam & Eve to sin from the beginning? I honestly don't think so. I believe He desired to always have communion with us, intimacy with us, which was what the Garden of Eden was designed for... but we screwed it up. You can't tell me that if you had been created the first man or woman, that you would have done differently. But because of His love for mankind, He decided that He could use our screw ups for His glory.
I visited my parents' church yesterday. I am crazy about their new pastor! They finally have got such a good fit for their body of believers, it is so wonderful to get to go and listen to him speak. His sermon was on guilt.
During his talk he gave an explanation of the "Day of Atonement," how Jews only had one day in the year that the high priest could sacrifice for the "big sins" of all people. ONE DAY. If they sinned the following day, they would carry that guilt around for a WHOLE year. Really think about that!!! What a gift it is that we can approach the throne of God any moment of any day because of the perfect sacrifice of Jesus, our Great High Priest!
He also used the passage in Genesis 3 to explain something I had never picked up before. Adam & Eve were not just kicked out of the Garden of Eden as punishment. It was to save their lives. In their sin against God by eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, they had separated themselves from God. They had sinned, and he could no longer be in constant communion with them. This was what He said.
The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife and clothed them. And the LORD God said, "The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever."(Genesis 3:21-22)
He banished them because He didn't want them to eat of the Tree of Life... which would forever bind them in their sin!!!
I could go on and on about how incredible this understanding is - but I'll end here, because I really want to leave you thinking about the fact that God is perfection, we cannot compare our good deeds to his GOODNESS. He is not human. He cannot be compared to human beings. He is total otherness.
But because of His great Love for His creation, he decided to make another way for us to have that communion, that intimate relationship with Him again, as he designed. Was it his ultimate plan that man should sin and be separated from Him? At this point, who really cares? We are SO loved!
If Jesus did poop, I'll bet it was a spiritually meaningful experience for him, because he understands the spiritual meaning behind it. I think that is the grossest post I have ever made. You always bring out the best in me, Frank. ew.
I agree whole heartedly that “God’s creatures left to their own devices… …rebel against their creator.” This is Gods cruel pre -programming at work. Ohh man did I just say that God was cruel?! Well sorry but he sure is! I believe that we humans feel God has some duty to us to be kind and loving and care, but this is only due to our sense of fairness. It would be unfair for something all powerful to use its power for evil and not for good. But sorry, God is not fair! God is just. Understanding that God is not fair and does not act fair, at all, helps us to understand this.
Colossians 1:16 For by Him all things were created, {both} in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him.
God created the creation for himself not for his creation. The clay cannot yell at the potter, “why am I an ugly lump? Why don’t you make me something beautiful? Why are you poking sticks in me? Why did you just throw me off the potting wheel?” lol That made me laugh. God has no duty to balance good and evil. It says:
Romans 8:28 And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to {His} purpose.
What about those that do not love God? What about those who aren’t called according to his purpose? That is only a small fraction of the world population. Seems like a bummer, stuff is going to work together for bad for the vast majority of people. I mean really how many people love Jesus? Not very many. So the rest better plan on haveing some bad days because that’s the plan!
Is it really so wrong to take your kid to the beach and the child ends up playing in the waves. And you as the parent know that they may go too far and get sucked out into the ocean? Also knowing that you will swim out to save them and be the big savior parent? Is it really so wrong if you know 100% for sure you can save them? How about if you have 10 kids and you only swim out to three of them? Wasn’t it their choice to go play in the waves? They could have built sand castles.
Here's one for you--I just read in Chronicles that Satan stirred up king David to do a census, which was reprehensible to God, and God punished David for it by striking down Israel. It flies in the face of what I think is just. If Satan started it, Satan should be punished. Certainly not the people of Israel who had nothing to do with this act of David's. Still, david pleaded on Israel's behalf pointing out to God that they weren't to blame, and God relented of the plague He sent (after David killed and burnt some cows of course). It seems clear that God's justice is different than what we expect as humans, and that we should be careful in ever applying our own understanding of what is "good" or "fair" to God's work. Sometimes I think I need to just shut up and listen more, and let Him teach me, rather than me accuse Him of not being what I was taught in Sunday School.
Jenn... I second what you just said! Boo ya!
Jenn, that passage in Chronicles has a counterpart in 2 Samuel 24:1, where it says God moved David to take a census because He was angry with Israel. So what does this mean? Was God angry with Adam and Eve?
We do seem to humanize God and base our idea of fairness on what we deem fair. The universe is so huge and complicated, past, present and future.
Just like in Chronicles, when Jenn brought up that Satan set David up to the idea, then Gardiner said that God did it. We look with our eyes and see, but sometimes we have no idea what the big picture is because we are presented with only one perspective of limited information, and probably not know what God is doing now, or maybe setting something up for hundreds of years down the road and we are the analogies He will use.
In I Corinthians, Paul talks about the Jews being used as a picture, so that the future can learn from them. Is that fair?
Life just isn't about "good" and fun and what we deserve,even. It's about fulfilling God's purpose, which is restoration of a fallen man, union with His creatures, which is how we were originally created.
It can get a little confusing in this day and age, especially to those of us that are in child-raising years. Society is teaching us parents that we should catch our children BEFORE they fall, set up all these barriers so they will never know pain. Schedule every minute of their day with things they WANT to do, and let them manipulate you into changing the schedule if THEY don't like it. We think we are the ones in control by the way we tailor these little lives, but really, they are the ones dominating us.
Why do we approach God this way? Beg Him do to what we think is fair, be satisfied if it works out for us, or go into depression when we are uncomfortable, struggling with really lame life situations, maybe even death. But, the universe and its' course is so much bigger than us. And, in a different dimension than flesh costumed souls. We live like we are the costumes, but, reality is what is in the costume, the soul/spirit. That is the realm that we need to get in tune with and live in, the spritual realm, where God dwells.
People say "it's a small world". I have heard Frank say in reply, "Try eating it."
I don't know what it means. Seems odd that in one case Satan gets the blame and in the other God does. Guess all we can deduce is that what Satan's doing is at least allowed by God, and that in being allowed it can be called "God's will" since He plans to use it for His own purposes. Perhaps our idea of God's will is too narrow...we use it to mean "God's actions" when really His will is for an ultimate purpose, one which He uses the devil to accomplish. Creation happened with God's full knowledge of where it would end up, and I have an idea that that was the point all along--for God to demonstrate the aspect of his nature we call grace and mercy, and to show the devil and the heavenly host what love looks like in the uttermost.
"But where sin increased, grace increased all the more, so that, just as sin reigned in death, so also grace might reign through righteousness to bring eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord." Romans 5:20b-21
He's gotten the victory.
Try eating it. Ha.
Wendy said I have to post this, so here it is. Direct from my IM conversation with her...
Satan is hebrew for 'accuser"; who does he accuse, and of what?
Consider for a moment how often legal terms are used in the Bible. "satan" is actually the term for "prosecuting attorney."
Take the woman at the well. Jesus is asked to judge her. Instead of making a ruling he forces the accusers to leave. Case dismissed for lack of prosecution.
So who is Satan accusing? God. What is he accusing him of? being unjust, unfair, unloving and unforgiving.
He's appealing his sentence.
In response, God creates the universe, creates a race that will rebel against him, provides a means for them to seek forgiveness, and then forgives, proving that he is in fact a just, fair good, loving, forgiving God, and if Satan will only repent and ask forgiveness, he too will be forgiven.
We're a part of God's plan. In one traditional teaching, we are to replace the fallen angels in Heaven.
Everything from Adam to Jesus is driven by Satan trying to taint or destroy God's plan in order to cause a mistrial. He kills Abel to try to block the Messiah. He tries to turn the human race into a non-human hybrid in the time of Noah in order to disqualify the Messiah. He tries to derail David's heirs. He tries to get Jesus to commit suicide in the Garden of Gethsemane to prevent the sacrifice.
Everything since Jesus is Satan trying to taint the jury.
"Do you not know that you will judge angels?"
Okay... but that wasn't where the conversation ended, MacQuarrie.
[17:23] jimmacq: I don't remember who-all I stole it from.
[17:23] jimmacq: A key point for me is Moses.
[17:23] jimmacq: When he freed Israel, he also freed Egypt.
[17:23] weeenk: John had said to me when he started this blog,
[17:23] weeenk: "Wait till we start talking about big picture stuff... it will blow your mind"
[17:24] jimmacq: But the Egyptians didn't know they were slaves, so they didn't understand that they were free, and when a new pharaoh came along, they willingly enslaved themselves again.
[17:24] weeenk: yep
[17:24] jimmacq: Which is to me the most accurate picture of Christ ever.
[17:24] weeenk: Incredible.
[17:24] jimmacq: We do not become Christians in order to be saved. We become Christians because we discover that we have been.
[17:25] weeenk: That is one of the most beautiful ways of saying that that I have ever heard.
[17:25] weeenk: I'm sitting her totally bawling.
[17:25] weeenk: here.
[17:26] jimmacq: Then I must be onto something.
[17:29] jimmacq: And this is why I can't stand most evangelism programs. "they're lost and gonna burn in hell, and we gotta get 'em into church and get 'em saved."
[17:29] jimmacq: Welll... no.
[17:32] jimmacq: They're saved and don't know it, and are living like slaves instead of kings. We need to tell them.
[17:32] jimmacq: I call it the Gospel of Jumanji.
[17:32] weeenk: I love it.
[17:32] jimmacq: Remember the movie?
[17:32] weeenk: yes
[17:33] jimmacq: They tell you over and over that once the game ends, everything goes back to the way it was at the start.
[17:34] jimmacq: But then when it does, we're surprised anyway, because we didn't get that "the start" was really the start, not when the second two kids came into the game. "OH! You meant THE START!?!!?"
[17:34] jimmacq: Look at all the statements that God makes, that we add qualifiers and exclusions to.
[17:35] weeenk: yes.
[17:36] jimmacq: Oh, wait. You mean EVERY knee will bow?
[17:36] weeenk: LOL
[17:36] jimmacq: Surely not every sin is paid for?
[17:37] weeenk: right.
Yes. I saved it.
Thanks Weenk and MacQuarrie. Interesting thoughts for sure!
Not to be nit-picky, the woman at the well was alone with Jesus. No accusers. You were talking about the woman caught in adultery.
Senility is an ugly thing.
Yes, the woman caught in adultery. Though the woman at the well has a similar experience. Jesus lists the charges that could be leveled against her, and then just changes the subject. Case dismissed.
He's kinda cool that way.
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